Transcript:

BRAD NEWBOLD 0:00
Hello everybody and welcome to We Measure the World, a podcast produced by scientists for scientists…

MICHAEL FORSTER 0:07
One big project which is of interest is that in Australia, not only are we you know installing solar and wind farms for local electricity, but we have so much sun and so much wind here that we could potentially export it to other countries. So in Northern Australia, there’s actually a project proposal that’s going to be the largest solar farm in the world, it’s going to have the largest battery in the world. And it’s going to have the longest marine or sub sub ocean cable in the world. And so what they’re going to do is grow the electricity or create the electricity here in Australia, and it’s going to be a cable running from Australia all the way to Singapore via Indonesia, and it could potentially supply up to 20% of all the electricity in Singapore.

BRAD NEWBOLD 0:56
That’s just a small taste of what we have in store for you today. We Measure the World explores interesting environmental research trends, how scientists are solving research issues, and what tools are helping them better understand measurements across the entire soil plant atmosphere continuum. Today’s guest is Dr. Michael Forster. Michael is a senior adjunct research fellow at Griffith University in Queensland, Australia, founder of Implexx Sense, and director at Edaphic Scientific and exclusive distributor of METER Group instruments. He obtained his doctorate in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology from the University of New South Wales. He previously worked as an eco Hydrologist at the University of Western Sydney, and was a plant physiology senior adjunct research fellow at the University of Queensland. His research interests include plant water relations, and biomass allocation patterns at a macro physiological scale, as well as experiments with sap flow. And today, he’s here to talk about applications of scientific instrumentation in environmental research, spanning from pollution monitoring on the Great Barrier Reef, to assessing the role of wildfires on soil hydraulic properties, and a few other projects in between. So, Michael, thank you so much for being here.

MICHAEL FORSTER 2:05
Thank you for having me. And thank you very much.

BRAD NEWBOLD 2:09
All right, so as we do with our guests, we would love to hear a little bit of your background, your personal background, how you got into the sciences in general? How you got into ecology and environmental sciences? And what brought you to where you are now?

MICHAEL FORSTER 2:25
Okay, so I suppose my journey is a story of increasing sophistication in using different technology. So when I was at university as an undergrad, my experience with technology was as much as a tape measure or a ruler. And then when I went to postgrad, I went up another level and started using a balance and in some lights, and this sort of thing, so and then I started doing a postdoctoral program at the Western Sydney University. And there I was introduced to a whole range of different types of technology. So things like soil moisture, sensors, weather stations, plant sensing technology. So you’re going from something where I could barely have access to a tape measure to having really sophisticated scientific instrumentation, which was just fantastic so. But when I first started university, entering as a freshman, if you like, I actually wanted to study birds. So I went to university to do a course in birds. But the year that I started was the same year that the professor of Ornithology or the professor of birds happened to leave that year. So the course they offered in birds was no longer available. So they said, Well, what else do you want to do, and I was really interested in biology. So I thought, I’ll just do I don’t know, plants and whatever. And so you kind of I never really wanted to do plants. And I definitely never wanted to do soils, but it just started happening throughout university and it just became more and more of an interest and the more I started doing plants and soils, the more interested I became in those topics, and the more I went down that rabbit hole and and just got more and more into it. So it’s sort of funny how you don’t intend to do something, but life just takes you down different paths.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 4:14
Plants are cooler anyway…Maybe not objectively.

BRAD NEWBOLD 4:20
Says a plant physiologist right.

MICHAEL FORSTER 4:24
That’s right. So um yeah, I went to do the postdoc, and we worked a lot of instrumentation there. And then I ended up starting my own business in 20 uh 2015. So that’s Edaphic Scientific and that’s basically importation and distribution business. So we started working with companies like METER Group or back then it was Decagon Devices and supporting companies like METER Group in Australia. So one thing I’m very excited about with the business is we get to work with all sorts of different people. Then all sorts of different researches and walks of life in all sorts of different applications. So not only soil and plant, soil and plant sciences, but we also do things like marine sciences and conservation and civil civil engineering and buildings and urban environments. It’s just a whole range of different things. And it’s very interesting. And it’s what, it’s what keeps the keeps me up and keeps me going every day when I get out of the bed. And so what, what, what topic is going to be there in my inbox today? Like, what what are we going to be doing today? So you’re never too sure. And it’s, it’s always exciting to see what’s coming up.

BRAD NEWBOLD 5:38
So then are you or are you then getting to go out into the field? And I mean, I would assume that you’re working with, you know, the consultation side of things, as well as the distribution of instrumentation? Are you then also, I guess, working with, you know, installation, and project setup, and, and all those sorts of things?

MICHAEL FORSTER 5:55
So perhaps the most important role that our company plays, and probably you do to there METER Group is we help in the planning stage. So particularly big research projects, they, they have grand ideas, they want to do lots of different measurements, but in reality, everything is limited by the amount of funding that they can do, or that the amount of funding that they can they can get for instrumentation. So one important step that we play is okay, what sort of funding Do you have, and what can we do to maximize sample size and, and get the best scientific outcomes for different research projects. So that’s probably a lot of my time is spent in that planning stage of projects I do is I do do some installations, I do get to go out into the field. And that’s something I enjoy, I love getting out of the office and traveling to all different parts of Australia to to have a first hand experience with the projects. And there’s also Once the data has been collected, particularly when there are students involved in the projects, we, we have a lot of assistance with the students to help them understand the data and analyze the data, and what does it all mean, and in which directions they should go. So we don’t really write research papers anymore. But we do certainly assist with, particularly students in making sure they’re understanding what the data is, and that they’re interpreting it in the correct way.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 7:20
And that’s getting a project off to a good start. And we, in understanding the limitations of the instruments is, you know, frequently the foundation of the of their project.

MICHAEL FORSTER 7:31
Absolutely. And often to some researchers aren’t aware of what’s available to them. So they they might think I need to do this, or I need to do that. And then you say, Well, have you ever heard of this sensor? Or have you heard of this approach? And, and sometimes they’re not aware of what’s available to them. So making them aware of the different options out there is also an important, an important part we can play in their research projects.

BRAD NEWBOLD 7:58
And hopefully you don’t get some of those grad students who say, “Hey, can you do my project for me?” I know Chambers has! Chambers can tell some stories about that.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 8:09
But it’s also amazing when they when they when they get going, you know, and our past that hump of oh my gosh, what? What? How am I going to figure out this problem? Where do I even start? And so you know, that’s, that’s the amazing part, from my point of view.

MICHAEL FORSTER 8:24
Uh absolutely yeah. I always have to put myself back into the shoes of being a grad student, because I was at that stage at one point in my life as well. And it’s like, Well, okay, if there was a time when I’ve never heard of a soil moisture sensor, I had no idea what capacitance, or TDR, or stommata conductance, any of these things no idea what they were so, but one of the great things about working with a company like METER Group is you have fantastic resources on your website. So you have some really great webinars and educational resources and, and I always direct students to those resources as a starting point. And sometimes I feel very overwhelmed, but it’s always a great point to start. It’s like well, look, just go look at Chris at these webinars or look at Doug or Colin or all the other guys that METER Group and, and, you know, just start there and see see where that takes you. And, and of course, the webinars lead to links where there’s papers or other material and it’s just an ongoing process and it just snowballs from there.

BRAD NEWBOLD 9:25
All right. Well, you mentioned in passing that you like to get out of the office and go explore all all quarters of Australia there. That takes us into our first topic that we mentioned in the intro, where you’ve been able to help out with a research project looking at pollution monitoring on the Great Barrier Reef. Can you tell us a little bit about that project, how it got started, how you got involved with it?

MICHAEL FORSTER 9:51
Yes, absolutely. So for those who aren’t familiar that the Great Barrier Reef is one of the seven natural wonders of the world. It’s it’s a massive eco system that sits off the sort of eastern and northern coast of Australia. And it’s about 3500 kilometers long. And it’s one of the most biodiverse ecosystems in the world. And it’s often compared to the Amazon rainforest, in terms of its biodiversity. So it’s this incredible natural legacy that Australians have. But unfortunately, probably like most ecosystems, these days, it’s under a lot of threats. So the the biggest threat it is facing is the accumulation of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which of course are being absorbed by oceans, and it’s leading to ocean acidification. The Great Barrier Reef is also under threat from invasive species like the crown of thorns starfish. But another big threat, which is not always recognized, but it’s quite an important threat is actually a lot of nutrients and sediments being washed off the land. And that’s been washed over the Great Barrier Reef so, so basically, particularly with the sediments, what’s happening is after, after a tropical, tropical rainfall event, or a cyclone, or what have you, you get a lot of runoff going into the rivers and, and basically, the reef just gets covered in mud, essentially, or a lot of dirt. So that’s gonna affect the water quality and turbidity of the water, which is not, which is not good growing conditions for for sensitive coral reef organisms and the other big ones who is the nutrient loads. So with a lot of farming practices, they’re applying fertilizer to their crops, so nitrogen, and phosphorus and potassium and all these other fertilizers. And a lot of these fertilizers get washed off, or they drain through the root zone into the groundwater. And then that then goes into the waterways into the rivers and out into the ocean. And that nutrient enrichment can also affect the growth patterns of the Great Barrier Reef so so things like carbon dioxide enrichment, that’s a global problem, that’s something Australians, we can obviously do our part but we always we don’t have total control over that. The crown of thorns starfish or invasive species is something we can control. But particularly the sediment and nutrient pollution running off the land is definitely something we can control. That’s, that’s the only thing that’s completely in our power to do something about so. So the the Queensland Government and the Australian Government, they’ve dedicated a lot of funding and resources to understanding this problem and trying to work out okay, why is it occurring? What can we do about it? And how can we resolve these issues so all Australians, we love the Great Barrier Reef, it’s not something people do intentionally. So even farmers and growers or land managers, they want to know what can we do to improve this situation. So, so one thing they have been doing and this is where METER Group has been very beneficial, is using Lysimeters to understand drainage patterns and nutrient loading around these farmlands and around the land that’s, that’s adjacent to the Great Barrier Reef. So for those who may not be familiar ally scimitar is basically a water collecting device or something that measures water in the ground. And in terms of the Great Barrier Reef, the two Lysimeters that are mostly used are the wick lysimeter and the sampling lysimeter. So the G or the G3 wick lysimeter from METER Group it’s basically a big cylinder that is usually sits below the root zone of a crop or other plant and water and nutrients gets collected into a reservoir beneath the root zone. So with this collection, we can measure how much water is draining beneath the root zone and we can also collect that that drained water and we can measure it for for nutrients and toxins heavy metals or whatever you need to measure so so we can take that solution back to the laboratory and measure for things like nitrogen and phosphorus, the the other lysimeter the what’s called the SKS20 sampling lysimeter all that does, it just measures soil solutions. So you can put those those samplers into the soil and then you can collect the solution from the ground so then you can measure your nitrates and phosphorus and what have you so so we have a lot of people actually installing the wick lysimeter because you can actually connect that to the internet and you can see in almost real time the amount of drainage that’s going through the soil profile. So you can do that on a ZENTRA cloud platform. And you can also see with an EC sensor or an electrical conductivity sensor, you can also potentially see how much how much salts or nutrients are being accumulated beneath the root zone. So so this is great information for growers because they can after an irrigation or a rainfall event they can actually see how much water is going beneath the roots of crops. So as a grower, you it’s quite expensive to irrigate and apply fertilizer to your crops. So you don’t want to be seeing all that washed right through the root zone and basically escape what the plants can uptake. So it’s actually quite a lot of, it’s a good business model or good economic model for farmers to sort of know how much water is being drained through the soil profile. And we can also see how much nitrates or phosphorous in particular are being lost through the soil the root zone and that’s potentially going into the waterways and groundwater so so the wick lysimeter it’s actually a very popular instrument for this purpose. And it’s also being complemented by the the SKS20 sampling lysimeters.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 15:46
And rather than wait for the analysis to come back from the lab, like the like, the suction cups, then you get with the electrical conductivity, kind of a proxi and what’s in there huh?

MICHAEL FORSTER 15:58
Absolutely, yes, so so obviously with the the suction cups or suction cups, right, and the even the wick lysimeter, if you go collect soil solution, you You’re obviously only doing that at, say, once a month or once a week. So you don’t really necessarily know when that water accumulated or when that event happened. So having sensors in the lysimeter, you can actually see, okay, when when did the drainage actually occur? And with the sensor, you can kind of see, okay, when did when were the nutrients are accumulating? So it’s a great way to complement the other different datasets.

BRAD NEWBOLD 16:35
What have been some of the findings, at least with, with what you’ve been seeing, you mentioned, you know, the the runoff and the, you know, various nutrient load and other things like that, that are coming in? What what, what else? Have you been seeing?

CHRIS CHAMBERS 16:47
Or was anything surprising? Yeah, like you kind of knew that things were running off, that you’re getting nutrient loads, but, uh, what did the data show? Yeah.

MICHAEL FORSTER 16:57
I suppose the surprising thing was, there was nothing surprising. So it kind of confirmed, it kind of confirmed what we what we knew already. And, and also to in these areas, this particular part of Australia, the northeastern part of Australia is probably the wetter area of Australia. So water resources are not so limiting there. So a lot of growers have never really had the motivation to perhaps be more efficient with irrigation or to look after their irrigation. So often, they would just turn on the irrigation and let it run for a day or whatever it may be. So this is actually highlighting to them, how much potentially over irrigating that’s occurring, and particularly how much money they’re wasting with the fertilizer and the nutrients because it’s getting more and more expensive applying fertilizer to crops. So so that is definitely something that a lot of land managers and government agencies are trying to communicate to growers is that even though you might not have a motivation to use water efficiently, because you’ve got so much water, you should still be using the nitrogen, the fertilizers a lot more efficiently to cut on your costs, and to also have environmental benefits, so.

BRAD NEWBOLD 18:15
Yeah, I was going to ask if that if one of the things that I’ve asked in in with previous guests is how they communicate to various groups that they are working with, whether it is like you mentioned with growers or with you know, government agencies or with researchers, have you found a, I don’t know like a silver bullet or a golden ticket to be able to convince you know, each of those two to improve their processes?

MICHAEL FORSTER 18:44
Well, I doubt it is a silver bullet or anything like that. But one thing they do well, particularly in Queensland and other parts of Australia all over Australia actually is there is a lot of communication and a lot of workshops and working groups. And so people obviously don’t like to be told what to do or dictated to. So there’s a lot of consultation and working with farmers and growers. So there’s definitely not a heavy stick going out there saying stop doing this or we’re going to tax you or we’re going to find you or anything like that. It’s more raising awareness and then having regional workshops and regional educational days or field days and you know those sorts of events. Bringing attention to these these factors because as I said earlier, most people in Australia don’t want to have a negative impact on the environment. They do want to do the right thing, but often they don’t understand the day to day practices are having a negative impact. So it’s just sort of bringing that to their attent- attention and saying look, if you if you cut back your fertilizer by 10% your crops are going to be fine. But you’re going to be saving money and at the same time you’re not polluting the Great Barrier Reef So it’s sort of a win win situation, and that that’s the sort of approach most people like to take.

BRAD NEWBOLD 20:05
So what do you see as the future then of this project? I mean, it’s, as you mentioned, the Great Barrier Reef, over 3000 kilometers long. It’s a huge area. It’s, I doubt that this one single project is going to fix everything that’s going on. But But what do you see as the future of this project and how it can help in remediation efforts in in revitalizing the Great Barrier Reef.

MICHAEL FORSTER 20:30
So one really positive aspect that’s been occurring is that there’s been a lot more land rehabilitation and regeneration, particularly with the sediment runoff and the nutrient loading or the sediment loading onto the reef. So often, say growers might have an area of their farm that they’re not using, then they said, Okay, look, we can plant a forest there, or we can we can revitalize a wetland or, you know, we can do something like that. So the, they’re looking at the land holistically, and saying, How can we manage the land at a total landscape level, so we can minimize the amount of soil and nutrients that are running off into the waterways. So not only is that helping, minimizing or decreasing the amount of soil and nutrients that’s running into the waterways, but it’s also improving habitat for the local native species. And there’s been an abundance of evidence showing that when you have good biodiversity on or near farms, and that helps with other things like pest control and keeping insect population down, and sudden you’re not spraying as much for pests and this sort of thing. So it’s, it’s sort of building more resilience into the landscape. And so it’s, it’s building that kind of awareness. And it’s definitely the direction where a lot of land, land managers and land growers are heading in Australia.

BRAD NEWBOLD 21:55
It is, like you said, yeah, one of the wonders of the natural world. And there’s a lot of work that still needs to be done, though, to help it get back to its absolute former glory, right?

MICHAEL FORSTER 22:06
It’s a it’s an ongoing thing, it’s not going to stop tomorrow. It’s, it’s something that we as if we’re if we’re going to farm adjacent to the Great Barrier Reef, it’s just something we’re always going to have to keep in mind. So it’s just an ongoing process. And something we just got to keep improving.

BRAD NEWBOLD 22:23
Another thing that that’s quite common throughout the world is a push for renewable energy. And in doing that generating or at least creating and developing solar and wind farms, and you’ve had a chance to work with installations, instrument installations on some of these can you give us a little insight into how that’s been going?

MICHAEL FORSTER 22:45
Absolutely. So this is a big topic in Australia as it is probably most countries in the world. It’s their transitioning from your fossil fuel sources like coal, to renewable energy sources like solar and wind. And like a lot of places the solar and wind is very abundant in Australia, but it’s not quite where the populations are. So the best places to put a solar farm or a wind farm is often hundreds of kilometers away from our major cities or our major urban populations. So that means we need to also invest in a lot of infrastructure to transmit or transport that electricity. So that means installing a lot of cable in particularly underground as well. So it’s a bearing a lot of cable. So, it sounds pretty simple and straightforward, but when you do bury cable, you have to keep in mind that it could potentially overheat. And once cable overheats, it can fail and then that can lead to blackouts and brownouts and compromise of the electrical infrastructure. So, so, one thing that we do a lot here in Australia or a lot of environmental consultants do is they use the TEMPOS thermal properties meter, and also the various thermal dry out curve device as well. So, so for those people who aren’t familiar with these instruments, what they essentially do is they measure the thermal resistivity of the soil. So that they basically measure how heat is dissipated or is released through a soil or a substrate. So, this is important because when you bury a cable, often around that cable, you would have some kind of substrate or filling material that that sits around our cable and you need to make sure that the thermal properties of that material is not going to compromise the the electrical cables so so they do a lot of testing in laboratories and then they do a lot of sorry, in the laboratories they do a lot of testing with a various instrument. And then out in the field they use a temporalis instrument to to make sure that the thermal properties of the substrate is correct and up to specifications.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 24:59
And so do they have I have like different mixes or I, I know very little about this topic, you know, but I’ve, I’ve seen some projects like that, you know, so like, what’s their, what’s their recourse if they find that the thermal conductivity is too low and can’t carry the heat load away.

MICHAEL FORSTER 25:18
So it’s unfortunately, we’re not always privy to those details. Because a lot of customer we’re dealing with a lot of private companies here, they, they like to keep those they’re sort of a secret recipe and to themselves. So we not always been told exactly what is their substrate, or what is their secret formula. But, but there is definitely a standard, where if you did lay a cable of certain specifications, then the thermal properties around our cable has to be a certain type. And importantly, not just the thermal properties, but the water content of the substrate as well, because the thermal properties of the substrate can vary with water content. And this is where an instrument like the VARIOS is very important, because it tells you the, what is the thermal resistivity at a particular water content. So that’s quite important to know. So, so we don’t always know exactly what they’re doing in terms of what substrates they’re laying, but probably sometimes they’re just laying it directly into the native soil. Other times, they might have a particular geofabric or geomaterial that they’re laying around the cables. So I would like to know, but unfortunately, they don’t always, don’t always tell us these sorts of things. But they definitely there is a industry standard or an industry table saying, if your substrate is X, Y and Zed materials, then your thermal properties have to be this sort of these sorts of values. So so that’s what they that’s what they try to do.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 26:49
And your role is to give them the information that they can meet those standards to, to have a safe installation.

MICHAEL FORSTER 26:56
Absolutely. So our role in this particular instance, is making sure the instrumentation meets industry standards. So there’s a lot of what is called ASTM, and I know in Germany, they have different standards themselves. And so all around the world, they have different industry standards. So it’s very important because when these consultants, they lay the cable, they actually have to sign off at it and say, Okay, we laid it to the standard and instrument we use was a TEMPOS and the TEMPOS or the VARIOS meets this industry standard. So that’s one great thing about working with METER Group, because you understand that there are these standards out there, and often you, you part of writing the standard yourselves. So we work quite closely with the industries to say, yep, we know what the standard is. Here’s the documentation outlining the standards and the TEMPOS and the VARIOS, definitely meet those standards. So one big project, which is of interest is that in Australia, not only are we, you know, installing solar and wind farms for local electricity, but we have so much sun and so much wind here that we could potentially export it to other countries. So in Northern Australia, there’s actually a project proposal that’s going to be the largest solar farm in the world, it’s going to have the largest battery in the world. And it’s going to have the longest marine or sub sub ocean cable in the world. And so what they’re going to do is grow the electricity or create the electricity, here in Australia, and it’s going to be a cable running from Australia, all the way to Singapore, via Indonesia. And it could potentially supply up to 20% of all the electricity for Singapore. So so that project has been discussed about for many years. Yeah, it’s amazing. And, and Australia is blessed with not only solar resources, but also the space to be able to put all those solar panels. So we can actually help our neighbors in Asia, where like Singapore, for example, is, you know, land is at a premium in Singapore. So they don’t have the luxury of installing massive solar farms. But we can install those solar farms here in Australia, and export that electricity all the way to Singapore. So and just to give you an idea that cable is going to be about four and a half 1000 kilometers long. Which is probably what about the width of the United States, so something like that, approximately. So that just gives you an idea of how long that cable is intending to be so.

BRAD NEWBOLD 29:27
That was actually part of my, one of my questions is that is that as they’re laying cables throughout Australia, we’re usually not that great at geography in the first place. But when we think of Australia, one of the things we think about is a huge central desert there, you know, the Outback, is there much, I guess, diversity in the soil characteristics throughout that throughout that region. And I guess this is working with the assumption that that is where a lot of these solar and or wind farms will be located, like you mentioned will be kilometers you know hundreds of kilometers away from from you know, nearest town or city? So yeah, I’m just wondering about the soil characterization of that land there.

MICHAEL FORSTER 30:08
Yes, absolutely. So for those who aren’t familiar with the geography of Australia, it’s about the size of the continental United States. So the the 48 contiguous states in the US. So if you think of the size of Australia, it’s roughly about that that same size. And you’re right about 80%, or about 75% of Australia is desert or an arid landscape. And so that means we have a lot of sunshine. But it also means not many people are living in the middle of Australia. So the population centers, are mostly around the coast of Australia, and in particular, on the eastern coast and the southern coast of Australia. So, so transporting that electricity, from the sunny areas, to those coastal areas, does go through a lot of different soil types, and a lot of different ecosystems and climates as well. So there is a lot of variety out there. And that is definitely something that has to be considered and managed when they’re designing these projects.

BRAD NEWBOLD 31:08
Right and that actually just triggered a thought as well, in many, many nations here in the United States and Canada, as well, when, when trying to work on a project that size, you’re also needing to involve consultation with indigenous groups as well. Is that something that then I mean, we talked about in the last segment about working with farmers or growers, and, you know, government agencies and researchers, how does that come into play with with working with indigenous Aboriginal groups there?

MICHAEL FORSTER 31:43
Yes, absolutely. So that is definitely a factor that needs to be considered and is being considered. So there’s a lot of consultation, not only just solar farms, but anything like mining companies and that sort of thing as well. So there’s a lot of consultation and a lot of discussions with the local indigenous people. But what’s probably even more controversial, a lot of farmers are upset about all these transmission lines that are running through their properties. So that is, that is quite a big controversy at the moment that they don’t necessarily want all this electricity, or these infrastructures and say, going through their, their landscapes. So that is a problem that probably not just us here in Australia, but probably in many places in the world is this challenge of transitioning to these green technologies and having it dispersed right across the landscape and having to not only transport it, but dealing with all these different landholders and stakeholders and trying to get to a point where everybody’s happy, and everybody, basically, you can have electricity at the end of the day.

BRAD NEWBOLD 32:50
Right, I know, it’s one of those things where I don’t I don’t have an entrepreneur hat. But if I were to put one on, you know, seeing that that geography of Australia, you know, there’s quote, unquote, nothing out there, right. And there’s a lot of sun. And it, it would seem like it’d be a paradise for solar farms, but at the same time, you have to, you know, deal with the, you know, that cost benefit analysis of what then are we affecting weather ecologically environmentally, also working with various cultures and peoples that are there as well. I guess you don’t want to create a giant heat island in the middle of Australia, either. But but yeah, so there’s a lot that goes into, into working on projects like that.

MICHAEL FORSTER 33:35
Absolutely, so on that topic, as well, like there’s not a lot out there. It’s one big industry or our biggest industry in Australia is mining. And so even though we don’t have a lot of dense population centers, or dense cities out there, there’s actually still a lot of economic activity in terms of mining. So some of the most sparsely populated regions of Australia are mined sites and the METER Group equipment is actually perhaps a whole catalogue that METER Group produces or manufactures is being used in the mining industry in Australia. And all the way from the planning stage to the operational to the closing down of, of different mining projects. So this is where METER Group has a big play or a big role in what we do here. And in terms of environmental management and environmental research in Australia, so So when we’re designing mines, for example, you don’t design a mine for production, you actually design a mine for closing it down. So before you even start a mine, you’re working out how do we close the mine and what do we do with the land after it’s everything’s done? Because most mine’s running around for maybe 30, 40, 50 years, something like this. So we need to know okay, after the mine closes, what happens then? And so there’s a big basically any mine that gets approved now has to have a plan for closing it down and, and the goal, if you like is to return the landscape back to its natural form, or back to what it was before the mining started. So it’s probably a bit idealistic, if you dig a big pit in a landscape, it’s probably not so easy to return out to exactly what it was before. But there is a, I guess, a motivation that a lot of mining companies and a lot of the community want to see that being turned returned to something that’s, you know, can be a national park or can be like, you look at it in 50 years time, and you would never think there’s a there was a mine there. So, so the METER Group equipment is used to, for example, the WP4C, and the HYPROPS, they used to work out the soil water characteristics, when you’re planning for different mindsets, the things like the PARIO. For particle size analysis, we’re working out what are the soil characteristics, and things like the SATURO, or the case that are working out the hydraulic conductivity and infiltration of the soil properties. So, so there’s a big understanding, okay, what what are the soils doing at these sites? What are they? How are they behaving? How do the different plant species there, how do they tolerate different hydraulic conductivities and particle sizes and this sort of thing? And so there’s a lot of a lot of equipments being used in that respect. So then when the mine actually gets closed down, and they’re planting forests, and they’re planting vegetation.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 36:35
Sounds like they’re the type of measurements they’re making are more to understand how how water will move through the soil, then is that to kind of absolutely at the restoration end, so that they can kind of build it back up, or is it to keep like extraction pollutants, to understand the cause, where those are going to move to and contain that sort of thing.

MICHAEL FORSTER 37:01
So it’s probably all of those things. So water in the landscape is very important for mining, so not only extracting it for different mining processes, but also to minimize the amount of pollution that you could be causing in the waterways. And one particular world studied or world thought about process in Australia is these ecosystems called groundwater dependent ecosystems. So these are basically forests that are growing out in the desert. And there’s just looking at it, there’s no water or anything out there in a desert, but you’ve got these nice, beautiful forests and vegetation growing out there. And they’re actually accessing water from the groundwater. So about 40 meters below the surface, the roots are going that far down into the ground, and that’s where they’re getting their water from. But if you put a mine site right next to that, then that’s going to affect the water level, the groundwater levels it could go up, it could go down. So there’s a lot of people monitoring the groundwater and monitoring, monitoring the vegetation itself, to make sure that the amount of water that’s extracted or the amount of water that’s being put back onto the landscape is not affecting these groundwater dependent ecosystems so so things like the TEROS 21 Soil water potential sensor, especially those sensors can show that the set of top one meter is completely bone dry, and absolutely not a drop of soil, not a drop of water available to the plants at all. But you have this beautiful vegetation community still growing there. So So those sensors can demonstrate that there’s no water in the top, but the plants obviously growing, so they must be getting out from the groundwater. So so that’s just one example where the METER Group sensors are being used quite quite a lot in the mining industry is, is these groundwater dependent ecosystems.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 38:55
Get a bit of your eco-phys hat going with that, with that project huh.

MICHAEL FORSTER 39:00
Oh absolutely, so it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a wonderland for ecophysiologists or ecohydrologist, it’s, you have a lot of research projects. So they not only can do research projects to benefit mining, but you can also address fundamental questions of ecophysiology and ecohydrology. So yeah, it’s a great complement not just to do land management or monitoring, ongoing monitoring, but you can actually address fundamental research questions as well.

BRAD NEWBOLD 39:31
So as we’re talking about landscape and working with groundwater, let’s talk, I guess, we can keep talking about soil hydraulic properties, but but we wanted to touch on wildfires and their role in I guess, soil hydraulic properties of, of the landscape. I know we’ve have quite a few different Well, yeah, several of our customers here who are researchers looking into this this very issue I know Australia has had its, its, you know, its large wildfires especially a few years ago, a huge one. So can you give us a little background into what’s going on with with those kinds of projects? There in Australia?

MICHAEL FORSTER 40:08
Sure, absolutely. So yeah, as you mentioned, wildfires are particularly important here in Australia. So locally, we call them bushfires. And you might remember a few years ago just before COVID. And before the pandemic, we had a horrendous fire season where billions of animals died and millions and millions of hectares were succumb to wildfire. So that was a very, very bad wildfire season or bushfire season, as we call it here in Australia. So we need to understand, okay, so we have these wildfire events, and how does that impact the landscape. And so obviously, when you have these really high intensity, bushfires, it basically strips the whole land of vegetation, and root matter and things like this. So you just have all this loose soil just sitting there on top of the landscape. And often after a rain after a bushfire event, you get a heavy rainfall event. And this can cause a lot of erosion, and it can cause a lot of sediment running into creeks and rivers. Not only that, but we need to understand that when you have these big fire events, that it actually changes the physical and chemical structures of the soil. And this in turn can impact the infiltration rates and the hydraulic properties of the soil. So the species that naturally grow there and need to regenerate might be affected by the change in chemical and physical properties caused by the fire. So it’d be like a fire cooking the soil and it just like we cook chicken or a steak or vegetables or whatever, it changes the chemical composition. It’s the same with wildfires and what it can do to the soil so so instruments like the SATURO, and the MiniDisc Infiltrometer, particularly the MiniDisc that is really popular for this. Because it’s so small and tiny, you can put it in your backpack, and you can go hiking around the landscape and do lots of measurements all over the place. So a lot of research has been done with those sorts of instruments to understand the the hydraulic properties of the soil, and how these change after different fire events.

BRAD NEWBOLD 42:20
What are some of those changes, what have you been, you or those that are doing that research has been seeing whether using the SATURO or other infiltrometers.

MICHAEL FORSTER 42:29
So the so as I mentioned, before there the structure can change. So the physical structure structure can change, and you can get more repellency in the soil. So rather than or the soil becomes a bit more hydrophobic as well. So rather than rainfall or rainfall events, being able to seep through the soil and naturally go down a profile you could get, the soil becomes hydrophobic, and it repels the soil and it starts running off. So you don’t get that infiltration, particularly down into the deeper parts of the soil profile. So this can obviously then have ramifications for what type of vegetation can regenerate or regrow in areas that have been succumb to fire events. So, so through these measurements, you can start to better understand, okay, how intense was the fire? How did that change the the infiltration rates, and in turn, you can do say glass house or laboratory experiments and say, Okay, if we had this sort of infiltration rate, what sort of seeds can regrow under that, or which sort of species can tolerate that sort of soil environment. So there’s so many things to unpack there. And there’s so many different results that you can look at. And, and it’s definitely not one, one result that answers or everything across the landscape, it’s very heterogeneous response, particularly as well, where on a landscape it occurs. So if you’re at the top of a slope, or an a plateau, or if you’re midway down a slope, or if you’re down in a valley, the the physical structure can also change. And that can affect the infiltration rates. So looking at different parts of the landscape, and particularly slopes on a hillside and how that can change the the soil properties as well, so, so that there’s so many things that can occur after a fire and there’s so many things, we’re still trying to understand that it’s, it’s hard to say, well, you just can’t say this is one result across the whole landscape. So there’s just so much to understand now.

BRAD NEWBOLD 44:37
Is it something then that I guess it’s not so much that that they’re trying to I’m just thinking about about remediation efforts, and it’s not that we’re there trying to get things back to the way they were, but it’s more so, what can we do now with the soil characteristics that are there now the soil properties, that are there now to or, like you said, revegetate, or revitalize that that landscape? Is that is that more of the case?

MICHAEL FORSTER 45:06
I think that would be nice if we could do that. But it’s such a big landscape and such a large area that it would be very difficult to implement any sort of management strategies to change the landscape in that way. So it’s probably more on trying to understand how, how is these wildfires? And how are these big fire events? How are they changing the landscape? And how is that going to change the species composition, so it’s more of a reactive understanding. So I mean, sure, it’d be great if we could be proactive and apply some kind of chemical to change the structure of the soil to help the infiltration rates or something like that. But, you know, we’re talking vast, vast areas here that it’s just really not practical to, well, there’s just not the money or the funding to to do that sort of management that land scale statement, style management. So it’s more of, okay, these fire events are going to happen. If we get a fire event of this intensity or this extent, how is that going to change the landscape? And how is that going to change the composition of the vegetation coming back, and probably the only thing we can do, and something that’s becoming even more difficult to do is change the fire regimes ourselves. So you mentioned earlier about indigenous consultation. And before Europeans arrived into Australia, the the Aborigines were masters of using fire. And of course, when Europeans arrived, we taught them to stop using fire, and the whole landscape just became a complete mess. And it’s taken us more than 200 years to understand that, okay, these guys actually knew what they were doing. And maybe we can learn a thing or two from them. And so, particularly, since there’s really bad fire season, a couple of years ago, there’s a lot more consultation with indigenous people, and what they call cultural burning, and incorporating indigenous knowledge about different fire regimes. So there’s been a lot more push, or a lot more appreciation of using those techniques. So, so think, understanding, okay, if we have these big, nasty, massive, intense fire events, that’s going to cause these really bad landscape changes. But if we use the cultural burning, or the cool fire events, that’s more done on a very local scale, and, you know, not such an intense area, then that’s not going to have a negative impact on the soil structure and the subsequent vegetation. So so so that’s where incorporating all these different types of measurements can really improve our understanding and, and, and incorporating different management techniques into the landscape.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 47:52
Are there are there measurements that might be helpful to, to identify high risk areas and kind of predict when we’re going into these high fire seasons. If there’s, you know, we have a similar problem in the west of the US. And it’s, it seems like, there’s efforts to kind of understand, understand, like, when we’re at our peak risks, or if it’s a little bit less, or identify areas that are higher risk. But you know, there’s still a lot of work there to do. And is there any movement towards that in Australia?

Speaker 1 48:29
Yes, absolutely. So, yeah, it’s a big research area. And there’s a lot of different fields of science and inquiry in that we actually do work very closely, particularly in California and other parts of North America. Because one advantage is our fire season is at the opposite time of the North American fire season. So often, when we have a very bad fire event, we, we have people from North America come down and they learn from us and we learn from them and, and vice versa. During your bad fire season, that’s our call time where we don’t have fire. So so we have teams and researchers go over to North America to to learn from you guys. And so there’s a lot of collaboration around the globe. It’s definitely a lot of good local knowledge. But there’s also a lot of things we can learn from each other. And also in areas like, like Greece, for example, in Europe, they’ve been having some very bad fire seasons recently, in Spain and Portugal as well. So I know some of our fire experts are going over there to not only offer some advice, but also to learn from them which and to bring that knowledge back to back here as well. So So there’s definitely a lot of collaborations and a lot of sharing of knowledge. And, and I think that’s the only way to move forward as we not only us here in Australia, but all over the world. We try to try to manage this problem.

BRAD NEWBOLD 49:52
Let’s move on to our last subject here and I think this one will, it will harken back to to a younger or Michael Forster from several decades ago who was interested in birds. And we wanted to talk about monitoring endangered birds and frogs. And and what’s been going on with that and how you’ve been involved with those kinds of projects.

MICHAEL FORSTER 50:14
Yeah, absolutely. So as I said earlier, one of the exciting things about what we do is you never really know what project you’re going to be doing next. There’s such a variety of things to do, and you’re never sure what’s going to end up in your inbox and what you have to deal with that particular day. So one thing that I get still get excited about is working with animals like birds and frogs, and, and bats as well. So even though the the METER Group equipment is promoted as plant science, or soil science or atmospheric science, they still use quite a lot for animal management, or animal understanding animal ecology. So one great example is what’s called the the white belly frog, which is found in a very localized area of southern Western Australia. And this particular frog, it’s only about two centimeters in length. So it’s very, very small. And it’s only found in very specific drainage lines in this one specific part of the landscape. So as you can imagine, it’s because it has a very specific habitat, it’s under threat. And so researchers want to understand, okay, how does it breed? What is its breeding behavior? How can we improve it? How can we help this species and so one thing they did, they use the TEROS 21, soil water potential sensor, to measure the soil properties around where the frog is living in, because the frog also buries itself into the soil to get some moisture. And what it actually found was the optimal water current water potential for the soil is about negative 11 kPa. And the optimal temperature was about around about 15 to 18 degrees Celsius. So So at those temperatures, that’s when the frog was most active. That’s when it was calling a lot for breeding events. And presumably, that’s when it could, was at its happiest and could breed and, and propagated the species. So. So using a soil sensor, we can use that to understand frog breeding behavior. So something like that is really cool. And when those researchers come to us, like they’ve probably never done soil science before. But they kind of know it’s important. So that’s, that’s where we can really assist them in the planning and, and helping them with the design of the project in this particular sense. So another great one as well is what’s called a Ghost Bat, or it’s also called a Vampire Bat. So it sounds very ominous and sounds like something you wouldn’t want to come across. But it’s a it’s a beautiful bat species. It’s kind of like this white color, and it looks like something out of a horror movie if you kind of came across it, but they, they live in these caves across northern Australia. And again, during their breeding breeding periods, they have very specific microclimate requirements. So the temperature and humidity in the caves need to be a specific level where they’re happy to breed and procreate. So in these particular projects, the ATMOS 14 sensor which measures which measures air temperature, humidity, vapor pressure and barometric pressure, a lot of these are installed in caves to monitor the temperature and humidity for these bats to ensure that their breeding events are occurring at an optimal level for them so so that’s pretty exciting. And and the last one you mentioned as well about the birds so this is a great one because it’s down in the just off the Southern Ocean. It’s where the what’s called the Shy Albatross. It breeds on some islands down in the southern ocean and, and what they’re doing down there as they’re, they want to understand the weather patterns and the microclimates around these islands. So they’ve installed the ATMOS 41 Weather Station on these islands down basically down in the southern ocean and through the ATMOS 41 are getting a better understanding of of basically the climate that these these albatross are breeding and living under so we don’t know a lot about these birds or we’re we’re still learning a lot about these birds. So we don’t we don’t know do they have an optimal temperature? Do they have an optimal wind do they have an optimal humidity and whatever it may be? So so we’re using the METER Group equipment to understand these environmental factors to better understand endangered species and their breeding patterns and and how to better management manage them for for future people.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 54:46
When you have a new project and like what are your we’re just looking back, like what are your what are some of your favorites? I mean, I know you mentioned like a lot of these this could be like your hit list but what uh, What are your most exciting things to work on? Like when you get get that call? And it’s like, I don’t know, like, just looking back? What are some of the some of the things that you enjoy most about?

MICHAEL FORSTER 55:13
Yeah, well, that’s a hard one to answer, because we get so many different projects, and they’re all interesting and, and that’s the thing, like, every researcher, they’re so dedicated to their work. And they’re so passionate about their work that they, we have to show respect to them. And we have to show them the same amount of passion and excitement about their work, because it’s all even though most researchers or most people think what they’re doing is the most important thing in the world. I think everybody what everybody’s doing is really important, and we’re all contributing to the greater good. But having said that, like, yeah, I really enjoyed the, like ones that are a bit unusual that you might not expect equipment to be used in a particular way. So so the one with the frogs and a TEROS 21. So now that it’s been done, it’s sort of obvious, it’s like, well, yeah, of course, you could use the TEROS 21 for for such a purpose. But it’s not something that you would promote on our on our website or something, you will go out to say to people all you need a TEROS 21 to, to measure your frog, so. So something like that is always exciting and, and things like the like the WP4C, for example, like, traditionally, that’s used to measure the water potential of soil. But people use that to measure water potential of leaves, or coffee beans, or materials or all sorts of different things. So using your imagination to take a sensor or a meter that’s used for one thing to do something completely different. For me, they’re probably the more exciting things that you’re thinking outside of the box, and you’re thinking of different ways to use tools for for different purposes so.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 56:52
Like, hey, water content might be really important here, even though it hasn’t been measured that much in this situation. So yeah, yeah, those are those are kind of my favorites too.

BRAD NEWBOLD 57:03
Those fun, different applications that you really don’t show.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 57:06
Like the decomposition of dead bodies.

BRAD NEWBOLD 57:08
That’s right. Yeah. Cool. We want to make sure that yeah, those chemicals, yeah, from decomposition don’t go flowing into the groundwater and those kinds of things. I think, I think we’re at the end of our time, we do I think it would be great to have you on again, Michael. So you can talk more in depth about your sap flow experiments. I know that that’s something that you’ve, you’ve worked quite a bit on, and have instrumentation specifically for for that kind of research. So I think I think we’ll, we’ll need to save that discussion for a deeper dive at another time. Our time is up for today. Thank you again, Michael, for being with us.

MICHAEL FORSTER 57:52
Okay, no, thanks very much. It’s been great talking to you. And it’s been a pleasure and anytime so yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 57:57
It’s been a great conversation. We’ll see you later Michael.

CHRIS CHAMBERS 57:59
See you later.

BRAD NEWBOLD 58:00
Thank you again. And if you in the audience have any questions about this topic or want to hear more, feel free to contact us at metergroup.com or reach out to us on Twitter @meter_env and you can also view the full transcript from today in the podcast description. That’s all for now. Stay safe, and we’ll catch you next time on We Measure the World.