Transcript

BRAD NEWBOLD 0:00
Hello, everybody, and welcome to We Measure the World, a podcast produced by scientists for scientists.

TEJINDER SINGH 0:05
If you’re trying to cover in the very last aspect of our research, it’s gonna be look at how much acceptance of different technologies we are using. Even though we are trying to develop different models, different ways to save irrigation water or different ways to model different things. But at the very end, it comes out at the adoption. How much ease it can be come with the adoption. So we’re gonna be trying to conduct a surveys and see what are the complications they see in the adoption of these ones. What are the big question they come across, like, while adopting these technologies? What are the drawbacks they feel like in using all those technologies? And that’s when it comes with the machine learning, and we can make it, more simpler for them.

BRAD NEWBOLD 0:51
That’s just a small taste of what we have in store for you today. We Measure the World explores interesting environmental research trends, how scientists are solving research issues, and what tools are helping them better understand measurements across the entire soil plant atmosphere continuum. Tejinder Singh is a PhD candidate in plant science at Utah State University, and he received his master’s in agronomy from Punjab Agricultural University in India. With a research focus on soil hydraulics, evapotranspiration modeling, and sustainable irrigation practices, Tejinder combines field based experimentation with advanced sensor technologies to tackle water scarcity and agriculture. Originally from a farming background in Punjab, India, Tejinder has been working to translate cutting edge science into real world solutions for growers in arid and semi arid regions. He is also a member of the first cohort of recipients of the Gaylon Campbell Fellowship awarded by METER Group for Innovation in Environmental Measurement. And he’s here today to talk to us about his work spanning the development of a soil moisture based evapotranspiration model for estimating actual evapotranspiration, evaluating soil amendments to improve infiltration, and assessing social adoption of precision water management tools. So, Tejinder, thank you so much for being here.

TEJINDER SINGH 2:07
Thanks, Brad, for having me.

BRAD NEWBOLD 2:10
No problem. Alright. So as we do with all of our guests, can you start by telling us a bit about your journey and your background? So what inspired you to pursue a PhD in plant science and agronomy, and how did you end up at Utah State University?

TEJINDER SINGH 2:25
Yeah. Sure. As you did mention, like, coming from a farming background, I did got to involve in all the different farm activities and all the operations, but I wasn’t that good in all of them. But I tried to continue getting involved in all of, activities, but then I did my schooling from my hometown. Then I moved to Khalsa College from where I got my bachelor’s of science in agriculture honors. And from there onwards, I tried to get into the agronomy. That was my main goal at the time. And then I got into the Punjab Agricultural University, Ludhiana, where I got my master’s in agronomy. And kind of building upon all the different events like developing kitchen garden models in doing my undergrad, looking at the different aspect of herbicide resistant weeds in, doing my research, and then kind of building into different production system. I kind of got into a PhD at Utah State, and I’m doing my PhD with Matthews in plant science department. Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 3:28
And we’ll dig into a lot more of what you’re doing there here in a second. Any experiences that you had growing up that that kind of informed what you wanted to study?

TEJINDER SINGH 3:37
I wanna be honest here. As a kid, I never expected to be getting that much involved in agriculture because I was a bit careless. So when I do some kind of operations at field, I used to mess around some of the stuff, like a bit of obligations, but I try to cope up with all of them and then getting into, like, what I was expecting to be doing, what I should be doing. I always try to apart from doing those, I always try to get into other jobs rather than directly doing all those operations I need to do. But, yeah, the mainly basic crop production kind of motivated me to get into agronomy And kind of it built my interest in agriculture.

BRAD NEWBOLD 4:23
Your research is quite broad, looking into soil amendments and evapotranspiration and percolation and groundwater recharge, and even helping farmers adopt new technologies.

TEJINDER SINGH 4:34
Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 4:35
So how do all of these elements tie together under the larger umbrella of improving water use efficiency and what you’re hoping to do with that?

TEJINDER SINGH 4:43
Yeah. Before getting into deep into the research, I just wanna give a kind of quick picture, like how we got into involved into all the different aspect of the research. So what we are trying to do in Utah is mostly conserving water. And it’s a big issue in Utah. Like, it’s one of the most driest places on earth. And most of the water being used in Utah is used by agriculture. So we are trying to conserve water and improve the water use efficiency of the different systems we already have in Utah. So how we are trying to conserve it, it all revolve around the agriculture water balance. So it’s just a balance between the all the inputs we have and all the outputs we got. So in inputs, we usually consider, like, irrigation, application we are applying, precipitation in the form of rain or snow we are getting into the soil, and in output we usually consider around evapotranspiration, some of the water gets stored into the soil, some of the water get percolated below the crop root zone and which finally ends up in a groundwater. But some of the water usually get run off from the soil surface. The water running off from the soil surface is usually because of the poor infiltration we are getting. That is the we usually say, like, the water we are applying just immediately entering into the soil, and the rest of the water goes with the runoff in the form of runoff. And that is usually because of the poor infiltration, which we usually explain in a way, like, entry of water into the soil. And my kind of research revolve around mostly how water moves in soil, kind of in plant, and also in the atmosphere. So complete soil plant atmosphere continuum.

BRAD NEWBOLD 6:32
Right. Right. Right. That’s what we like to hear at METER. We’re exploring the whole soil plant atmosphere continuum. So one of the key aspects of that is dealing with infiltration, like you mentioned. So what specifically are you trying to do to measure infiltration and to improve or at least help improve in some in some ways that kind of water infiltration to the soil?

TEJINDER SINGH 6:54
So with the infiltration, like, there could be many different reasons with the poor infiltration in the soil. Like, it can be due to the soil compaction. It can be due to the hydrophobicity of the soil. It can be due to the sodicity in the soil, excess of sodium in the soil, and it can also be due to all different soil texture and different factors. In one of our study, we are trying to look at the sodicity, how it’s impacting because if we get a lot of sodium in the soil, it do disperse the soil and create a kind of micropores and then restrict the water movement. So we are trying to apply different amendments like gypsum, compost, elemental sulfur, humic, and trying to look how they gonna be improving the infiltration. But apart from that, we are also looking at the hydrophobic soils, like we are trying to apply some wetting agents to improve the hydrophobicity and see if they improve the infiltration. And we also tested some crop biologicals if they holds a potential to improve the infiltration in the soil. And we are also trying to cope up around some of the conservation practices like cover cropping, no-till practices. So if we can find it all different kind of ways how we can improve the infiltration in the soil.

BRAD NEWBOLD 8:01
What kinds of tools are you using? Tools, sensors, instruments to to get at and measure measure the impact of that kind of infiltration or trying to see changes in that?

TEJINDER SINGH 8:12
Yeah. So we’re using a SATURO to get the field saturated hydraulic conductivity data for all the different amendments we have, but we are also trying to compare it with the lab analysis like we are trying to use a KSAT and a HYPROP to get a picture what exactly it looks in a field and also what exactly it looks in lab conditions.

BRAD NEWBOLD 8:36
I was gonna ask, actually, along with that, we’ve had some discussions on the podcast about field versus lab Instrumentation and how they compare and any findings, any insights onto onto how that’s worked for you. And one question along that, do you prefer field versus lab work? And then how do those results compare? How do you work I I guess, how do you intertwine both of those results?

TEJINDER SINGH 9:02
For me, I would say our I love more field work Because it’s complicated with for me to work around lab with all the sophisticated instrument instrumentation with all the lab instrument. But in field, we kind of get a exact field condition, like, for the infiltration or any other parameters. In field, there are a lot of different variables like macro pools. Right. We we got earthworms in there. So they can affect all of the different condition, but we also do need lab analysis. If we are applying some amendment in field, that amendment is gonna affect, gonna show effect along with all other different aspect of the soil. But in lab, we can exactly see how those amendments are affecting in the lab condition without having any issues with the all the other parameters in the soil. But it’s a good combination. We need both of them together to get a clear picture out of it.

BRAD NEWBOLD 9:55
Right. So one of the highlights of your work is the use and application of the soil moisture based evapotranspiration or SMET model for estimating actual evapotranspiration. So why did you choose to go that route as opposed to using traditional ET models, like with FAO fifty six or even eddy covariance towers or other things like that?

TEJINDER SINGH 10:17
For us, it’s more of, like, the kind of resource setting experiment we had. So we have a water optimization trials running in from twenty nineteen And I got involved in it in twenty twenty three. And in that trial, we are trying to test all different ways how we can optimize the water. Like, we are testing four different irrigation technologies like LIPA, LISA, LINA, MISA, which are low elevation, mid elevation. We are also testing some of the irrigation levels like one hundred percent irrigation, cutting back of seventy five, fifty, targeting the irrigation. We’re also testing some of the different crops like alfalfa, corn, small grain forage, and all alternative crops like sorghum Sudan, teff, and all different kinds of crops. Along with that, we have a drought tolerant genetics of the crops. We also have a no-till practices, conservation practices, and cover cropping. It’s a whole combination of all different treatments. Area of each treatment doesn’t allow us to use all different usually available models we have, like with the eddy covariance, with the Penman-Monteith, with the remote sensing tools like open ET or with the lysimeter. It wasn’t affordable for us to do a research in that big of experiments settings. We tried to find a way how we can estimate ET. So we are using soil moisture based evapotranspiration model, also called SMET model. So in the model, it’s usually based on the basic principles of the ET. So it’s usually called water balance method and also the crop coefficient. And for this model, we just need a soil moisture sensors in the soil, in the crop root zone, and we need a reference evapotranspiration from the nearest weather station. That’s all we need for the actual evapotranspiration calculations or estimations. So that’s all we needed to estimate actual evapotranspiration. So that’s how we get into, like, we’re gonna be using SMET model.

BRAD NEWBOLD 11:54
Got it. You mentioned all the different parameters. So you’re trying to break it down to you said basic principles of of the model. Again, what other types of instrumentation are you using? So you’re you’re trying to find the nearest weather station and pull data from that. Do you have weather stations right there on the field, or is it something that’s somewhat more a bit farther away? What are you using there?

TEJINDER SINGH 12:16
So with the methodologies, basically, the it mostly follows around the depletion of soil moisture. So most of the metal methodology revolve around the depletion.

BRAD NEWBOLD 12:28
Okay.

TEJINDER SINGH 12:29
So revolve around the soil moisture sensors, and a part of it is around reference evapotranspiration. So we are collecting it from the nearest weather station of each site we have. So we are trying to as using those ones.

BRAD NEWBOLD 12:44
Actually, wanted to ask really quickly is where are your test sites located? Is it there within the state of Utah? Is it in one particular area? Are you in different areas within the state?

TEJINDER SINGH 12:54
For the ET, most of the sites are in Utah. One of them is in Vernal, east of Utah, and one of it is in south of Utah, Cedar City.

BRAD NEWBOLD 13:04
How’s the soil there in those cases? Because you’ve talked about needing to add soil amendments, and that’s part of you know, that’s one of the main portions of your of your research. Can you explain a little bit about the differing environments and how they differ, how how they’re the same there?

TEJINDER SINGH 13:20
With our research, we got a pretty interesting climb weather condition during during our research study. So during twenty twenty two, when we did started estimations, it was one of the most driest year in the history of Utah. So and we also got one of the most wettest, not most, but one of the wettest year in twenty twenty three. So we kind of be able to capture dry and a wet year and also on a different types of soils.

BRAD NEWBOLD 13:51
With the research that you’ve done and in your test plots and, looking at soil and water infiltration and ET, what are some of the results that you’ve seen so far? And along with that, has anything been surprising to you in what you’ve seen?

TEJINDER SINGH 14:05
We got a pretty interesting results with the ET models. So we found out, like, if we are irrigating with low elevation sprinkler technologies compared to the mid elevation, there’s improvement in water use efficiency in the system. We also got results with the drought tolerant genetics of alfalfa. They do improve water use efficiency of the system, but with the conservation practices like tillage or cover cropping, they need a transition period. So because of that, we have a bit less crop stand in no-till treatment, but after a certain transition period, we hope it’s gonna lower the evapotranspiration period. But we also see a potential in deficit irrigation to improve the evapotranspiration during drought years.

BRAD NEWBOLD 14:52
Okay. Alright. Interesting. With this measuring the soil moisture, you mentioned using SATURO and lab equipment’s like the KSAT and HYPROP. Are you using other soil moisture sensors in trying to formulate or add data to the parameters of the ET model?

TEJINDER SINGH 15:09
With the ET, it’s simple. Like, we just need a soil moisture sensor so farmer because most of the studies, farmer usually have a soil moisture sensor, so they can just easily estimate the ET from that. So it that was the main motive, like, make a simplified model which can be used. Okay. But that was with the developers. So Right.

BRAD NEWBOLD 15:32
Yeah. They they had that goal in their mind at that time. Okay. Alright. Now when we we are trying to do deep percolation in groundwater, then it’s gonna be We’ll come back to that. I wanna talk about, yeah, getting and trying to have actual farmers and growers Yeah.

TEJINDER SINGH 15:50
Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 15:51
You know, apply apply the model. And that’s that’s a whole other story, so we’ll get we’ll get into that. So you’ve also looked at deep percolation and groundwater recharge, which are often difficult to measure accurately. How have you approached modeling those processes, and what kinds of impacts would this have on long term water use efficiency and sustainability?

TEJINDER SINGH 16:13
Yeah. Soil hydraulics is one of the most complex system we have ever studied. As water moves beyond the crop root zone, We can’t accurately estimate there there have been different models to estimate deep percolation in different ways, but there’s a question how much accuracy of each model is. So we are trying to use a different approach like water salt and biomass balance model. So we’re going to be using a water salt biomass balance model And this model is basically trying to capture, like, when we apply irrigation water, a fertilizer, they all contain salt. And those salt move down with with the application of irrigation. And we usually calculate that in terms of leaching fraction that is electrical conductivity in the irrigation water with the drainage water. But what we usually miss in that part, like, we do say plant doesn’t uptake water, but in reality, also uptake water.

BRAD NEWBOLD 17:13
In measuring this deep percolation, so you you talked about how it’s difficult. Once we get past the root zone and and deeper down, it’s difficult to to see, quote, unquote, see what the water is doing with the soil and how it’s moving. What depths are you using? What depths are you trying to gauge and measure at?

TEJINDER SINGH 17:33
Yeah. So we’re trying to get below the crop root zone. That’s the main goal. So we are installing sensors at one twenty centimeter, one fifty, and one eighty. That’s pretty deep with all the crop rooting zones. And we are installing TEROS 12, so we can extract the volumetric and EC data also. So we kind of need both of them for estimations.

BRAD NEWBOLD 17:58
Right. You said you’re looking at lots of different crop types, right, and and varieties. And so, I mean, you’ll have some that might only have eight roots out of a couple inches, you know, or centimeters, and then others, like with alfalfa, that are going way down there. What differences did you see in between those crop types, between how the roots or the plant type affected the deep percolation?

TEJINDER SINGH 18:23
So far, we are in the starting phase of the project. Okay. So, yeah, we are just installing the sensor, and we are starting looking at the data, and we’ll see how it looks for different crops and different climatic conditions. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 18:41
Okay. So the second part of that, when we’re talking about deep percolation then, is groundwater recharge, and I know that’s a a big deal also there in Utah as well, and in dealing with aquifer depletion, and especially with all of the irrigation, you know, with people dropping wells and and pulling that water out. So you talked about how, you know, the vast majority of the water use in Utah is from agriculture. Can you talk a little bit more about your research into groundwater recharge in in that case?

TEJINDER SINGH 19:12
Yeah. When we installed the sensor below the crop root zone, we are just installing the grabbing the data with the volumetric water content. We are like, what if we install a matric potential sensor along with it? And if we install both of them together at different depths, and we can kind of get a drying period out of it, like when moisture is depleting in the soil. And after extracting the depletion, and we can just make a retention curves out of it at different depths. And if we get a different retention curves, we can just fit in a van Genuchten model or different models, and we can find out which model we wanna use to calculate the unsaturated hydraulic conductivity. If we get a unsaturated hydraulic conductivity, we can easily use the Darcy Buckingham law to get the flow, or we can use the HYDRUS to model it, how much flow water is getting into the different aquifer. It was just a, like, different point connecting in the study to get to the groundwater recharge.

BRAD NEWBOLD 20:19
All of those measurements that you’re taking, are those there on-site, or are you expanding that out to see how water is flowing outside and beyond your test boundaries?

TEJINDER SINGH 20:30
With our kind of research setting, we are mostly focusing on the particular sites, and we are targeting a shallow aquifer And a medium kind of and a deep aquifer. We can see how water flows in different kind of aquifers and how much they are recharging in different aquifers. We are just using a soil moisture sensor, so we are just targeting particular sites with those ones. With this, are just trying to build a model which can be used to estimate. Our main goal is to just to build a model and then we can develop on it, like how we want to use it in different ways we can use it and at different places around the world, we can use that model.

BRAD NEWBOLD 21:14
So And I guess this is the the benefit of models is that you can make them as simple or as complex as as you need to. Right? You do you do end up with some diminishing returns the more the more parameters you add to your model. But being able to, like you said, create a model that then not only are you able to use and see work and apply there on-site, but then have it relatively simple so that you can use it in different locations. With that model, you’re hoping that it would be able to be used in various soil types, various crop types, in various environments.

TEJINDER SINGH 21:52
With all the models, usually, like, how sophisticated and complicated they usually get. So we I hope in future, maybe sometime soon, I do wanna incorporate machine learning to see how I can simplify all those models, and we can use it in different agriculture settings or even all the different settings apart from agriculture. So we can just expand the use and reach of the models with the different settings.

BRAD NEWBOLD 22:22
Right. Yeah. I was gonna ask ask that as well as that what newer emerging technologies would you like to use or see used in in this particular type of research?

TEJINDER SINGH 22:32
With this kind of setting, like, I’m already kind of getting through the soil regime, how soil moisture moves around the soil, and I’m getting the atmospheric condition with the weather station ATMOS 41. And so far, we are trying to capture or get a yield Manually. So I do wanna incorporate either cameras in there so we can do a complete soil, plant, atmosphere, complete continuum With all at one place rather than having a different approaches so we can do a more accurate water balance and see how water is moving in the zone.

BRAD NEWBOLD 23:09
With the machine learning that’s then on the back end. Right? So as you’re as you’re grabbing all this data, much more than a, you know, a human or a team of humans can parse out, and then being able to have that that machine learning and to be able to to break down and see what what patterns emerge and How the parameters of the model Yeah. Plague one against each other and all that. So as part of your research, and we mentioned this in the introduction, is that you are also trying to focus on, I guess, the social aspects of adopting soil moisture sensors. You talked about hoping to have you know, farmers and growers have soil moisture sensors easily accessible that then they can plug in and be able to use the model that you’re hoping to develop. What have you learned so far about helping farmers and growers adopt the use of this technology? Any insights or barriers to to that adoption that you’re seeing so far?

TEJINDER SINGH 24:03
We we’re trying to cover in the very last aspect of our research. It’s gonna be look at how much is the acceptance of different technologies we are using. Even though we are trying to develop different models, different ways to save irrigation water or different ways to model different things, but at the very end it comes out at the adoption. How much ease it can be come with the adoption? We’re going to be trying to conduct a surveys and see what are the complications they see in the adoption of these ones. What are the big questions they come across while adopting these technologies? What are the drawbacks they feel like in using all those technologies? And that’s when it comes with the machine learning, and we can make it more simpler for them and to be used in the future for them.

BRAD NEWBOLD 24:53
Right. You’re gonna be sending out surveys, you’re gonna be talking with these these farmers, and being able to to find out what what makes them tick. Yeah. And because I and the the thing too is that farming, especially in dry, arid, semi arid regions, is a high risk endeavor. Right? Yeah. You have either the reliance on precipitation with dry farming or in in these cases with irrigation. Being able to change relatively quickly, some very obvious benefits to to being able to and I I would hope that installing soil moisture sensors would be something that is noninvasive to to their to what they’re doing and would then, down the line, have a much greater impact, especially if they’re if, like you’re saying, with the model, they are only needing to insert a few soil moisture sensors on their land and then being able to incorporate that data to figure out what evapotranspiration is looking like there locally.

TEJINDER SINGH 25:52
Yeah. There’s a part of research, like, not even research, like, with the farming. Farming is most complex. It just doesn’t depend on just irrigation. They’re all different aspect in the farming. Like, they have to focus around all different aspect into the system and then make a decision out of it. So it would improve one aspect of it, but as a whole system, there’s need a lot of improvement in all those different aspects.

BRAD NEWBOLD 26:20
Right. With your background from family farming, you know, whether you’re good at it or not, has that helped to kind of inform how you work with or hope to work with the farmers in your in your research projects? Do you feel like you’re able to come to them, empathize with them because, you know, hey. I I see what you’re doing, and I have maybe some kind of better understanding as opposed to a researcher who is coming strictly from from outside that private or commercial agriculture side of things.

TEJINDER SINGH 26:50
Getting involved in different farms like small scale and big scale and all different aspect. It feels like there is getting adoption of different technologies and everything that’s a bit of move forward for all these things. But there’s always a transition phase. So that transition phase is getting in. So we are hoping we’ll probably get more in touch and more easy way of knowing how we can solve their problem and how they can adopt it. We need to build a way, like, how we can make a thing, a one click thing. Like, they just click on the app and see how much water should they apply. And they should also see how much they have saved that will motivate them, like, how much they are saving and contributing to the society. Yeah. Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 27:38
I guess that’d be true. The the currency that’s being used in a lot of these locations is water. Yeah. And there’s always, you know, questions about water rights and water use and where that water is coming from, where it’s going. And so, yeah, being able to, yeah, show that water saved would be, yeah, would definitely be be key in in helping them understand the benefits of using this technology. With all this super interesting research, you caught the eye of METER Group, and you are one of the inaugural recipients of the Gaylon Campbell Fellowship, so congratulations again. Thanks. Can you tell us, first and foremost, how how did you learn about the fellowship, what that means to you, and how you heard about the the fellowship in the first place, and how that experience has gone for you. What I guess maybe detail a bit a little bit about what’s all involved with being a Gaylon Campbell fellow.

TEJINDER SINGH 28:35
It was just a interview thing. Like, I got in touch with Matt, and he offered me into this position and getting involved in this kind of fellowship. Totally different, like, here in this kind of fellowship, I’m getting experience with the academia, industry aspect also, and getting more into the technicalities, how each instrument works, how all different aspect of the studies work. So I feel like getting both helping me build more out of and getting more out of research. Alright. Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 29:07
With the fellowship, you have funding for your research, but then you also have the ability to travel around and research. So for instance, you are here at METER Group for several months conducting research here in the lab. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience and being able to to move around and work on looking into improving your research practices and measurement techniques and familiarity with with tools and instruments?

TEJINDER SINGH 29:33
Yeah. It’s totally a different experience for me. Like, mostly all of the ag, PhDs in agriculture, we usually focus more on the research aspect. But I’m getting a chance to do a kind of internship in summer. That’s a pretty big part of my research. And here I’m learning learning from a different industrial aspect, learning from different researchers here, along with learning from the academia and getting classes from all different. So it’s a complete mixture of good blend of all the different things I’m getting out of my PhD. So it’s a totally different experience. And And also, like, getting involved in different field installed measurements and then getting with the borehole instrumentation, which could be a possible application for me in my coming research. So that’s a big part it. So I do enjoy it a lot.

BRAD NEWBOLD 30:29
Well, good. Well, I hope so because this is, what, a three year fellowship. So hopefully you enjoy it, and hopefully by the end, you’re going to be expert in everything that you need to do. Yeah. So the namesake of the fellowship, doctor Gaylon Campbell, still works here at METER Group. He is an amazing researcher, has had decades of experience in working in environmental measurements and agriculture specifically as well. How has it been working with him?

TEJINDER SINGH 31:00
Yeah. It’s really a great honor for me to working with that big name. So even though we are trying to move into different aspect, but get having expertise and deep insight from all of the different aspect of the research. It’s been pretty good improvement for me in my research.

BRAD NEWBOLD 31:21
Has it been intimidating working with Gaylon?

TEJINDER SINGH 31:23
He works a lot.

BRAD NEWBOLD 31:25
He does.

TEJINDER SINGH 31:26
Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 31:27
He he works a lot. He’s still going, and and it’s amazing. He’s still he’s still key in many of our research projects here at METER, and he knows so much about all different aspects of of the the research and the products that we’re developing and and all of that. Yeah. Specifically has he been helping you with when it comes to to your research? Are there particular aspects of of your research that you’ve been reaching out to him for?

TEJINDER SINGH 31:56
Probably mostly with the deep percolation, like the way we are developing, getting the methodology built, and revolving around the EC measurements and everything and how it’s gonna move on. So that’s gonna be a big part of the research. So Alright.

BRAD NEWBOLD 32:14
Last questions here, and we wanna kinda cover looking back on on what you’ve done and looking ahead as well. So with the research that you’ve done so far, what have you seen to be the most challenging and the most rewarding aspects of the studies and the research and the experience that you’ve had so far?

TEJINDER SINGH 32:34
There’s always challenges in research, mostly with the ag and all different kind of research. There’s always challenges, but we kind of got out of it. So that’s the best part. But we still have to work around different weather conditions and all the different measurements about the instrumentation, how to use it, how to get most out of the data we are collecting because we are collecting tons of data. But how we gonna be getting most of it out of it, so that’s the main part of it. That’s what I’m looking at, like, how we can I can use it more in the future in different ways?

BRAD NEWBOLD 33:12
Do you feel at this point in your research that you have any advice to give other researchers, maybe grad students or early PhDs who are trying to do environmental measurement and research similar to what you’re doing?

TEJINDER SINGH 33:24
Not particularly with this research. Would say with all different kind of research, just be patient. That’s all we need. Collecting hundreds or thousands of data points in your research and getting revolve around it and doing analysis and then getting to the endpoint of getting it published. So it’s a whole long process, and we need to be patient and trust the process how it goes.

BRAD NEWBOLD 33:48
Yep. Trust the process. Yep. That’s great. Fun question we like to ask here and there is if you had unlimited funding to do what you wanted to do, let’s just focus right now on your on your PhD. If you had unlimited funding, what would that project look like?

TEJINDER SINGH 34:04
I love that question. Since I’m kind of working around developing different models and looking at the hydraulics and the water retention properties of the soils and particularly in Utah, I do wanna try on a different soil health aspect of the ordinary regenerative agriculture and see and how it varies according to different soils because this one is a real time retention properties and the hydraulics we can see because we usually try them in a lab. But this would be great to see all those different movements in soil, how they’re acting in a different soils and different regions across the US or across the world in a different ways. So we can kind of see or build a benchmark for what healthy soil looked like exactly. And we can say like, okay, if we’re gonna do a no-till practice in Kansas or we’re gonna be applying a compost in Utah or even in California or somewhere in East, we can kind of find what we should expect from our whole soil health expectation, like what our healthy soil is gonna look like. So that would be a pretty good research for me.

BRAD NEWBOLD 35:06
Right. Right. Actually, there’s a question as you were talking, there was a question that that popped up. In your work with farmers here in the United States, particularly in Utah, what differences or similarities have you seen in agricultural practices there versus what you’ve seen back in India and particularly maybe in Punjab or or elsewhere?

TEJINDER SINGH 35:25
Even in Punjab, we have a kind of similar agriculture practices, but on a smaller scale. Like, we have a production system kind of farming, like we have a Midwest, we usually grow wheat, rice, cotton, and all different kind of crops. It’s basically the scale of the agriculture and also the different adoptions in the new technology that need to be focused more in a different ways, the accepted technology, and even it more depend on a region specific, like what’s the priority with both of the agriculture systems we have. So it just depend on the priority we have to focus.

BRAD NEWBOLD 36:05
Interesting. Okay.

TEJINDER SINGH 36:07
It’s literally a priority. Like, if we see in a Punjab, it’s mostly, like, small holding as we Right. As we get in But it’s the main focus at this moment is, like, even though it’s mostly the same, like, we are running out of groundwater. So that’s a big issue in Punjab also. So we are trying to find a different ways how we can save water. So we are just trying a different technologies and all different aspect. Can we reduce the area under rice cultivation, or we can find a different ways? But it all depend on the complex system we already got and the marketing we have to focus. It feels like it’s a whole different dilemma, but still, it’s almost similar.

BRAD NEWBOLD 36:58
Right. So did you say that you’re growing rice and Wheat.

TEJINDER SINGH 37:02
And wheat.

BRAD NEWBOLD 37:03
All in the same region.

That that seems incredible to me. I don’t know. I I guess because especially when looking at rice versus wheat, you know, completely different growing and management practices.

TEJINDER SINGH 37:15
Yeah. That’s pretty interesting. Like, in Punjab, we have a package of practices look for, like, thirty to forty different crops in one season, we have a different season like kharif, rabi, and we have a similar number of crops growing in a rabi season, it’s a complete system like summer, we have different crops, in winter we are following with the different crops, but it’s a whole complex system getting maximum out of your crop because Punjab contributes a large portion into the central food grain storage. So it’s a big part of the whole system of the country. So we need to keep up pace with the production system, but also find a way how we can save some water out of it soon.

BRAD NEWBOLD 38:06
Right. Interesting. Super interesting.

TEJINDER SINGH 38:09
It’s really complex.

BRAD NEWBOLD 38:10
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it. And especially dealing with small scale farmers, right, like what you’re saying. I mean, here in the United States, we have a lot of we’re trending more towards big ag. Right? And we have these larger companies that so big ag, large landholdings, very similar crops. I don’t wanna say minimizing crop diversity, but decreasing crop diversity, especially when you have the genetically modified crops that are coming up. And then also with the the precision ag, so the very you know, the high-tech equipment. It’s very fascinating, but it seems like a different side of agriculture than what you’re seeing there in Punjab. Yeah. We’re closing in on the end of our time. Any final thoughts, Tejinder, from what you’d like to share with our audience about your research and what you hope to do here in the future.

TEJINDER SINGH 39:01
I would say just keep connecting the dots and get into a more productive way so we can save every drop we have. Yeah. By twenty thirty five, even in Punjab, we are running out of water, groundwater, and it’s more of a challenge, like, how we’re gonna keep up with the food production. So that’s a big challenge. Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 39:24
So yeah. Yeah.

That seems Save every drop.

TEJINDER SINGH 39:29
Yeah.

BRAD NEWBOLD 39:30
Save every drop. That’s a theme, yeah, worldwide. Right? And especially when it comes to aquifers and groundwatering and all that. So alright. Well, that’s gonna wrap it up for us. Thank you again Tejinder for being here and joining us today. It’s been a very interesting discussion.

TEJINDER SINGH 39:50
Thanks for your interest. Okay. For me.

BRAD NEWBOLD 39:54
Great. And if you in the audience have any questions about this topic or want to hear more, feel free to contact us at METER Group dot com or reach out to us on X at meter_env. And you can also view the full transcript from today in the podcast description. That’s all for now, and we’ll catch you next time on We Measure the World.